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Lupe a Legend?

  • TAY's picture
    says: (13 Dec '09)

    Not yet, unfortunately.

    We have proclaimed "legends" and "greats" all over Hip-Hop that we all know Lupe destroys; without question.

    So, what do you think Lupe has to do to become a recognized legend/great?

     

    Time?

    An undeniably classic album?

    Beef?

    Die? (because apparently dying makes you famous *cough2Pac*cough*BIG*)

     

    What qualifies someone as a "legend" or a "great" to you?

    How close is Lupe to meeting your quota?

     

    Discuss.

    36
TAY's picture
on December 13, 2009

Not yet, unfortunately.

We have proclaimed "legends" and "greats" all over Hip-Hop that we all know Lupe destroys; without question.

So, what do you think Lupe has to do to become a recognized legend/great?

 

Time?

An undeniably classic album?

Beef?

Die? (because apparently dying makes you famous *cough2Pac*cough*BIG*)

 

What qualifies someone as a "legend" or a "great" to you?

How close is Lupe to meeting your quota?

 

Discuss.

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TAY's picture

@ NINJA Apology accepted. I kinda insulted you already too. I guess the way you came off in some thread just bothered me. Seemed excessively rude. But I take it back. As far as saying that I think that you must think Lupe "sucks at something". Welp, it just seems that you have him ranked much lower in more categories than I do. Sure, he may not be top tier at everything, but he's more than a fierce contender in most if not all aspects of lyricism and ability. Lupe's worst feature is his breath control. But even that seemed to be better on EotS. IMO
JonesSmitty's picture

People think commerical is bad but its really not. One reason why mainstream radio sucks because Radio station go by top 10 album sells and popularity.
JonesSmitty's picture

He's a great but not a legend yet!
nIANja909's picture

oh and by the way TAY, I should apologize because I've been kinda of harsh, like in the other thread saying all your posts are stupid yet you like a lot of good artists. I saw your name, and I mixed you up with someone else on these forums, who is truly stupid. But not paying attention, whenever I saw you post, I was thinking of that person lol. but now I see you are two different people =D
nIANja909's picture

I said "Jack of all Trades, Master of None", how do you get "You must think he sucks at something" out of that?
TAY's picture

@ NINJA Well to me, Lupe isn't bad at any aspect of rapping. I personally think he's quite good at most all of them. I think that's where you differ. You must think he sucks at something, where I don't... not really... I'm seeing him being well-rounded and highly skilled in all that he can do as being stronger than some rapper who has mastered or two one aspects of rapping. But that's just me. I feel like you'll disagree with that. lol ^_^
nIANja909's picture

I see what you were saying TAY, about Lupe doing so many things, and I agree, but again like I've said before, I don't think he does all of them that great. That's is my point of bringing up all these other people, because other people who perfect all these different styles individually, and Lupe is kind of just a "Jack of all Trades, Master of None". Which, that aspect of Lu, being a a very well rounded artist is why I like him "as much as I do". But I consider him the top tier of VERY few styles.
TAY's picture

@ 1PROPHECY Yes. Completely agree. That's "FINAL SAY" worthy. @ EVERYONE ELSE I drop my argument. I could have and would have gladly kept going, but we were going to deeply into specifics. Glad you guys were willing to go there with me though. Arguments is healthy. ^_^ Thanks.
1Prophecy's picture

nIANja said "but rarely does he evoke any sort of personal attachment or emotional response" I agree totally, this is the one thing I think Lupe is missing in his music to take it to the next level. That personal attachment. Lupe looks at music as a project and not as much as personal expression of himself. I touched a bit on this in another post but I'l try and explain it again. In my opinion Lupe never gets personal in songs, he doesn't give us that piece of his life and struggles like other artists do. Lupe makes generic songs where its almost like you can "insert name here" and it'll apply to you, he uses metaphors and imagery to hide what hes actually saying leaving his true meaning to our discretion. Rappers such as big and pac werent so popular because of their wordplay, or catchy songs, they were popular because people could actually feel their pain (or joy, pain is just usually the easier and stronger emotion to express) , and feel every word, that they were trying to say, in songs such as juicy, brendas got a baby, pac and big left everything on the mic, didnt disclose anything. If you need an example of an artist in our generation who gets on that level and leaves me reminiscent of pac and bigs personal level is Blu&Exile's BTH, listen to that album and then come back and tell me that you got a greater feeling when listening to the cool or food and liquor. Now dont get me wrong, Lupe is an amazing artist and I do believe he is the best at what he does, but hes still missing that one thing to get to the next level, to be considered one of the greats...and hes gonna need more then two albums lol...
TAY's picture

@ GRAMITOZ I agree. But you didn't answer my question. I'm not arguing what people are listening for, *I'm arguing what people are listening to. This is going to sound harsh, but just follow me on this one:: For every human being there are two worlds. -The first is their opinionated world. Here, what they think goes. -The second is the world in which everyone operates simultaneously, where opinions must have some kind of logical basis to mean anything. But there are conflicts between these two worlds all the time. And example would be :: A man thinking the sky is pink. It's not. Period. Whether or not he thinks it is, it's not pink. It's blue, most of the time anyway... But okay, maybe he has something wrong with his eyes that makes him think the sky is pink. Even still, it's not pink. Even if his circumstance makes him think it is, in reality it's not. Sure, there's a reason why he thinks what he does, but that doesn't mean he's right. Right? Why does any of that matter? Well, many people only think of things their way, and that may not be the way things really are. A lot of time, preference is the driving basis of many opinions, not logic. But sadly, the fact that you want something doesn't make it better in every way than something else. Not in the real world. *IMO :: In regards to a skill, (i.e. the ability to compose lyrics, or lyricism), the person that can perform the highest difficulty of that skill most efficiently is the most skilled. Lyrically, Lupe is the best to have ever done it because he performs at the highest level of difficulty, better than everyone else (considering all criteria of course). Yeah yeah, it's my opinion, but I have a hell of a lot of logic to back it up. AND I listen to hella lyricists. Lupe's the best I've come across. Calculus > Algebra > Simple Addition & Subtraction Just like Lupe's left/right brain lyrics > Immortal Techniques left brain lyrics > Wayne's no brain lyrics Period. That's all I've been saying.
TAY's picture

@ NINJA Dude, you just broke my point 4 all apart and named rappers that appealed to each category individually. I asked for ONE. One rapper that does ALL of that, ALL AT THE SAME TIME, and WELL. It's cool though, you can try again. But you did bring up a powerful point, that being the emotional connection. Being entirely real with myself, I don't listen to Lupe for a connection, not purely anyway. But then again, that draws upon how I look at things. To me, poetry is geared more towards and emotional reaction than lyricism. Lyricism = ... More the science of lyricism, less of the art. Poetry = More of the art of lyricism, less of the science. But I have been saying Lyricism the entire time. *I guess Lupe's the most impressive to me because he's the best combination of both (well-rounded) & relevant I've heard. Imbalanced yes, but still. Sure, there are plenty guys more poetic, Nas or Blu for example, but none more lyrical. Maybe more technically lyrical, like Elzhi or One Be Lo... But too much technical stuff gets real old real fast. Here's a thought. How about I list the things about Lupe that help me establish him as the best in my mind, and then you can tell me what it all means to you. Fair?
nIANja909's picture

I fail to see how Lupe is on another level of lyricism than so many other artists. Too many other artists that can express themselves more appropriately imo. Then again, I do care more about a connection to the music, then a random ass "creative, intelligent, articulate reference". But when it comes down to it, it is ALL subjective.
nIANja909's picture

Painting Pictures? Lu doesn't even do that the majority of the time. He rhymes facts and talks about a lot of s***, but rarely does he evoke any sort of personal attachment or emotional response. Even more rarely does he convey an atmosphere (which is partially productions job). Tracks like "Put You On The Game" are great metaphors and all, but you'll never truly get a sense of the grimy nature of what he's talking about like you will with raw s*** like Jeru the Damaja. or stuff like Nas-Illmatic or Mobb Deep - The Infamous. Abstract? El-P, Aesop Rock, MF Again, and I hate all these guys, but abstract they are, on a level Lupe will never even fathom touching.
nIANja909's picture

Give me an example of Lyricism. From what I gather, you're saying, Lyricism = Artists ability to express their intent thru rhymes. I'm not exactly sure what you mean on "difficulty of execution", and how exactly that factors in to being able to express their themes/ideas thoroughly. In all honesty, the more difficult and complex you make an explanation, the less impact your rhymes are gonna have. If you're just trying for word play that's one thing, but as far as driving a point home, it's completely different. I'd definitely love to see an example of what you're talking about before I speak on that. But as for point 4, I don't see how Lu is the most imaginative or creative dude in Hip-Hop, unless you are judging solely on the fact that not many people touch on like... anime references n stuff. In which case, sure, Lupe makes some really obscure references. But dudes like Del Tha Funkee Homosapien are imaginative too, and Lu ain't never done anything as imaginative as make a concept album on a Dystopian future in the year 3030. As much as I hate Doom, he sure as hell ain't have a career based ENTIRELY on alter ego's and f***in super villains n s***. Socially Relevant? Termanology - Watch How it Go Down, Fashawn - Ecology describe environment, tons of stuff Common spits is socially relevant. Intelligent? Articulate? Too many rappers to name who can properly express themselves. They may not use Websters Dictionary during their writing process but, they can convey an idea just fine.
Gramitoz's picture

because it depends what you are listening for Snoop in comparison to Lupe on this forum would sound stupid. But give the people who have always followed Snoop and you will get an argument that simple lyrics with bounce and rhythm are more important than trying to make people figure shit out.
TAY's picture

@ NINJA And as far as your last comment, I'm sorry but I'm going to have to call Fail on this one. Seems like you're waiting on other people to proclaim Lupe's greatness so you can agree. be an individual. @ GRAMITOZ Alright. But why are you so hesitant to think that complex lyricism > simpler lyricism, even if they achieve the same thing? Does level of difficulty mean nothing?
TAY's picture

@ NINJA Okay. Welp... (1) To me, lyricism is every and everything an artist can do with words, verbally. And of course that falls within the lines of composing lyrics. Take an intent, add all of the things one can do to verbally communicate that intent, and then consider the difficulty at which that intent is then executed with words by the lyricist. So abstractly ~ Intent + Possibilities + Difficulty of Execution = Lyricism, from a judgmental stance. How well a lyricist performs this is what establishes an impressive lyricist, to me. (2) I never said lyricism was "the most important part of making music". This is what i said :: TAY - "And no, lyricism isn't everything, but only a fool would front like it's not an important and integral part of Hip-Hop." So... yeah. (3) Well, first you gotta understand the difference between a thing, and then a thing that is a result of subjectivity. Michael Jordan was a highly skilled basketball player. How that skill influenced or inspired viewers, and the consequential actions due to that influence or inspiration, (i.e. sales of shoes, how many people watched when he played, etc etc...) is subjective. But even if people never bought his shoes or watched his games, that doesn't mean he wasn't great. The same goes for Lupe. *And no, just because this scenario worked in Jordan's favor in the real world doesn't mean that Lupe's lack of commercial success deems him talentless. (4) Name ONE rapper that is as simultaneously imaginative with references, metaphors, painting pictures, and abstract yet cohesive scenarios ALL WHILE being as intelligently articulate and socially relevant, diverse, considerate and sane AND does all of this with as much lyrical capacity as Lupe Fiasco. I know what you mean by achievement. I never said Lupe made the best music or boasted the best catalog. I simply said he was the best lyricist Hip-Hop has ever known. There's a difference.
Gramitoz's picture

Lyricism varies greatly Me, personally, i like seeing a complicated rhyme scheme, rugged delivery or shit to make you think. Which is why my music is Eminem, The Clipse and Kanye, Lupe and Nas.
nIANja909's picture

1st. Define "lyrically/Lyricism" for me. 2nd, explain why it is the most important part of making music, and takes precedent over everything else 3rd, how the hell is "lyricism" or skill not subjective, yet everything else is? 4th, how is Lupe the pioneer of "imaginative, intelligent hip-hop"? And how on earth did he take Hip-Hop to anew plateau? And by "Achievement", I'm talking everything. Including the quality of his albums and music (which is the most important part to be judged by an artist, f*** everything else, or how "intelligent" someone is if they aren't making good music, then how the hell are they good musicians?) as well as other things. There is nothing Lupe has done, whether it be lyricism, or other things I've mentioned, that other guys haven't done better then him.
TAY's picture

@ REZIDE Word... word. I see your point exactly. But even then I have to ask, so does subjectivity delete the idea of "correct" and "incorrect"? Maybe I'm a ass for this, but I believe that some opinions are better than others. Just because something is an opinion doesn't mean it can't logically be debunked, and thus proven "incorrect". @ GRAMITOZ Well yeah, but that's only because of the fact that there's a certain level of intelligence required by each subject. Of course chemistry requires a higher level of intelligence than the knowledge that Lupe spits. But that's only because Lupe isn't trying to teach us chemistry... And as far Hip-Hop not being defined by intelligence, you're right. But that's true because no one has taken it where Lupe has before. Things change... or rather, evolve. Intelligent Hip-Hop def isn't a bad thing. And yeah, we already have intelligent Hip-Hop. But not vastly imaginative, intelligent Hip-Hop. That's what sets Lupe apart. *Right Brain + Left Brain (Imagination & Intelligence) > Leff Brain (Intelligence) That's what Lupe can do that others can't. And he does this all while being more lyrical than the rest. That is how Lupe is a trailblazer, and that is why should already be a legend. ***Thus far, as far utilizing intelligence And imagination is a harmonious conjunction in order to convey intent and display skill, Lupe wins. IMO
Gramitoz's picture

Skill is subjective man. What isn't subjective? Album sales? - Sadly SAT Scores ...basically most things involving numbers.
TAY's picture

@ NINJA Bro, the flaw in your argument is the word "achievement". That's been my point from the start. Accomplishments like influence, sales, popularity, exposure, catalog, inspiration, all that isht is too subjective to base everything on, solely. Skill isn't. Skill-wise, Lupe is the best to ever do it. Yeah, I keep other artist's albums in heavier rotation, enjoy better catalogs, get catchier hooks caught in my head, I'm more interested in other styles more so than Lu's at times. But as far as taking Lyricism to a new and untouched plateau, Lupe is the best yet. Not succeeding in more subjective areas doesn't take that way from him. And no, lyricism isn't everything, but only a fool would front like it's not an important and integral part of Hip-Hop. That's all I'm saying. In relation to my original topic, Lupe should be a legend for being the most lyrically talented hip-Hop artist of all time. IMO
rezide's picture

amen.
Gramitoz's picture

I second Ian's post. And also, i may get heat for this, but intelligence in Hip Hop is not what intelligence is in the world. Unless you had the recipient of the Nobel Prize in Chemistry drop a hot hip hop album, Hip Hop is not defined by intelligence. There are smart dudes that make smart moves and get the exposure they need. Lupe is one of them, but his intelligence isn't all that impressive on a global scale.
Eagleztothegrave's picture

Make a straight album with nothing but club bangers, marry a white girl and loose his money in a divorce settlement, get into a beef, get shot several times, act a fool, create a song with a dance that goes with it, and then die...... But thats not gonna happen so yeah... Lupe isn't going to get the recognition he deserves, but maybe he dosn't want that kind of attention so if he's fine, i am too
rezide's picture

I do agree with you Tay. However there would be some (idiotic) people out there that don't. Some people can't comprehend Nas's lyrics, some people just don't care. I've heard people say that Soulja Boy is an incredibly lyricist, from the point of view that he deliberately dumbs it down to reach a wider audience. (yeah right) A point system could (almost) be applied, but there will always be a different point value assigned depending on the judge. Thus making it subjective.
nIANja909's picture

Like who? F***in name any "Great", that's who. Any great in the last like... 15 - 20 years has done something > Lupe's greatest achievement. Whether it be an album, whether it be inspiration or influence on the genre, style, music catalog as a whole. Whatever.
TAY's picture

@ REZIDE Yeah. But skill isn't as subjective as something's ability to influence someone. The truth is, real skill on the mic actually could have a stat system applied to it. Nas lyrically > Soulja Boy lyrically. Period. Why? Well, you tell me. And then you'll be hearing why I have the stance that I do. Unless you actually think Soulja Boy is better than Nas by any justifiable means ( which I see none), then you actually agree with me... @ NINJA Nigga, like who?
TAY's picture

@ GRAMITOZ Sure. But still, I have a slightly diff view. Naturally, I guess. lol As far as influence, maybe more in the lane or origination, and the popularization of that trail-blazing :: Yeah, Pac and BIG were influences and they did introduce new things to Hip-Hop. But since then, there have been people that can do what they do, and better. Lupe is one of those artists. *But wait, Lupe is a trailblazer all his own. How? He's the first emcess EVER to be the type of lyricist that he is. Lupe is the most well-roundedly skilled Hip-Hop artist of all time with the most diverse and appropriately utilized references, and sensibly complex lyricism of anyone, ever. The only difference between he and Pac & BIG is the exposure. And that brings us to your point. But there's the issue. Intelligence doesn't get play like it should. You have to admit, there was nothing mentally remarkable about Pac or BIG. Nothing. That is why they were able to be successful. Intelligence and the ability to comprehend it is pathetically uncommon, and thus unpopular, and so unsuccessful from a marketing/popularity sense... Looks like Lupe's plight will be his intelligent lyrics. Having intelligence be a drawback is plight no one should have to endure. Dumbed down isht isn't better, even if more people do like or understand it. IMO
nIANja909's picture

"We have proclaimed "legends" and "greats" all over Hip-Hop that we all know Lupe destroys" I dunno who the hell you're talkin about bro, but any legends and greats I know of, Lupe doesn't even touch.

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