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Lupe's Lyrical Competition?

CheckPlz's picture
on December 09, 2009

Who do you believe is lyrically close to Lupe? Right now

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TAY's picture

IAN Finish reading the entire thought. I'm literally saying that something can do what it does. I haven't been saying what metaphors can do, I've been talking about what they have already done. But this guy doesn't seem to believe they've been used successfully in such instances. And he's wrong. I told him what Lupe does with metaphors and that it works. He said that it doesn't. He's trying to tell me that something that clearly happened, didn't. Repremand him, not me.
nIANja909's picture

"What things can do = What they do." What you're talking about is potential, and if you know anything about anything, you should be able to see why there is a ridiculous amount of ignorant in that statement.
TAY's picture

MALIK What things can do = What they do. Especially since the former has been done, which is why it can be said that the something is capable of it in the first place. So now we can't compare tangible objects to other tangible objects? Fail. If something didn't equate to more understanding, then it wouldn't have communication value. I haven't been putting metaphors over anyting else. I've just been saying that they work just as well. In the beginning, you named off a bunch of rappers that are more straight-forward than Lupe, saying that they were more poetic. Which is untrue. Lupe is just as poetic, just not as literal. All straight-forward means is literal, voidof metaphorical references. That's the only definitoin it has. You want another definition, but there isn't one. Never said being striaght-forward took away communication value. I never said there was a difference between lyricism and being straight forward. I said there was a differnce between ebing straight forward and abstract. Lyricism is just the vessel. Now what holes are you talking about? All you've done here ismisunderstand.
Malik_3's picture

Can't edit posts but whatever, "straight forward" lyrics yield communication value and understanding. Not to mention you haven't differentiated lyricism and something that is "straight forward". And a flow's only "purpose" is to function within connection to the beat. There are far too many holes in your argument for you at attempt to be condenscending towards someone else.
nIANja909's picture

lol, Lupe trying to describe an orange would probably look something like referencing the inner mechanics of an automotive vehicle and the Amazon item shipping process.
Malik_3's picture

No you're saying what metaphors could do, not what they do. Just because you use a metaphor to help someone "visualize" or "understand" something doesn't mean it connects. If it's a well thought it metaphor, then sure, it would do that. That's a terrible analogy by the way kid. Giving a metaphor for a tangible object doesn't really help the person you're attempting to teach. It would work better for an emotion and maybe an idea to a lessar extent. The purpose of something is entirely irrelevant if it doesn't do what it intends to do. Just because something yields communication value doesn't mean it then equates to more understanding. But even if the metaphor did grant more understanding that still doesn't grant it status over any other technique, which you can't seem to understand. Even if you have no idea what you're typing, you should be aware that your constant emphasis on the metaphor because if yields powers "communication" over something that is "straight forward" outright says that you're holding in on a pedastal. By the way kiddo, me saying "whatever that means" to something being straight forward is a sarcastic aside to your inability to apply any type of definition to what straight forward would mean outside of not being metaphorical. Also, can you stop suggesting that metaphor is better than something that is "straight forward" (whatever that means to you).
TAY's picture

@ MALIK When did I say that metaphors were the end all? And of course a metaphor doesn't function all it's own, that goes without saying. That's why I didn't say it. I told you what a metaphor does. You then told me what I told you, but assumed that I didn't know that a metaphor needs an initial muse. I'm not putting an emphasis on metaphors. I'm trying to explain to you what they do beyond what they are. It's not about merit, it's about communication value. Metaphors yield communication value, which then provides more understanding. If you tell someone that doesn't know what an orange is, that oranges exist, then they have recieved no knowlege. If you then describe to them what it is, literally, then you've provided more understanding. At that point, say they stil don't know what the hell you're talking about, that's when metaphors and comparisons come in. You draw upon knowledge one already has in order to establish new knowledge. Your understanding functions too much on definition and not enough on purpose. And you don't even know what straight forward means! I'm in no way vague or ambiguous. You're just slow.
Malik_3's picture

A metaphor doesn't do anything on it's own. A metaphor functions within the context of the entire project. I'd hate to see what your creative puts out consider how much you put the use a metaphor on a pedastal. You're extremely narrow minded for someone who constantly rambles on about being creative. Not to mention you're throwing out vague statements instead of discussing what I'm actually saying. Also, something being "straight forward" (whatever that means) doesn't mean it yields lessar artistic merit than something that has the almight metaphors. There is a cornucopia of stylistic devices out there besides your so lauded metaphor. They all carry equal footing. Just because it has "extra meaning" doesn't hold it above other techniques. A proper construction of alliteration can prove more effective in conveying something than a metaphor. A metaphor doesn't add anymore visual cues than a well places motif. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figures_of_speech Go lread some of the hundreds of different figures of speech. Maybe you'll learn something.
TAY's picture

@ MALIK lol What!? You're being a bit bogus. I really do hate how people's lack of understanding makes you want to insult them, but that's happening here... Look. What something IS doesn't communicate what it DOES. You're looking at my explanation and trying to reason me down with definitions? Are you actually being serious? A metaphor is by definition a method of comparison, yes, but that defintion tells nothing of what that consequential comparison DOES. Metaphors are used to make comparisons which then add more understanding and context to what was originally at hand to be compared to. THINK. Definition does NOT = Purpose. That's why you can't even understand what I'm saying. You're not comprehending, you're just reading. Meaningless phrases? That was the best laugh I've had all week. And Doom goes over my head? Bro for the record, I'm a visual communications (art and design) major. I'm making it my career to be creative and to understand, interpret, and utilize creativity. Trust, I know aimless when I hear or see it. Doom is aimless or at best extremely loose most of the time. Unorganized, non-sequential excessiveness. Still dope though. All those people you talked about are primarily straight forward. Somehitng you're obviously good at understanding. Lupe isn't. And when he is, it's in the form of something else. That soemthing else is strategically placed to add context. To create a greater visualization than the literal image of what he's talking about. It's called adding texture, like I said before... Lupe's obviously over your head. THINK outside of what you think you already know next time youpost. Anddon't call me kid.
Malik_3's picture

You have an extremely narrow view of what being "lyrical" is with your over emphasis on metaphors and complete dismissal of "story-telling poetry".
Malik_3's picture

Stop saying "poetic". It's an absolutely meaningless term without any type of context. A metaphor does not in and of itself add "relatable context". It's a comparison that doesn't use any of the connectors found in simile. That's it. It's up to the writer to transform it from banality. DOOM's a little over your head so I'll leave that alone. "They're all just poetically straight-forward. Easy. No real depth, just legitimicy." Is an absolutely meaningless phrase, poetically straight forward in particular. Which doesn't even make sense consider the example of Ghostface who often uses 5% references that couldn't be taken straight forward even within a conversation with another 5%. Lupe is no more abstract than any other rapper that uses metaphors. "Visual plot elements"? You really should stop with putting in meaningless phrases, because they don't help your point at all. Metaphors don't help clarify, nor do they communicate. They're a device used however the writer cares to invoke it. Stop projecting. I've never thought "how did Lupe do that" when hearing any of his songs. I hope you're not one those kids who thinks "Dumb it Down" was an attack on the music industry.
nIANja909's picture

BIGZ, you're an idiot. Just stfu.
TAY's picture

@ MALIK I think you're confusing lyricism with story-telling poetry. Like the cliche kind of poetry, the more straight-forward and almost predictable kind. All Lupe does is story-tell, pretty much. How could you even say that Lupe's metaphors are only there to be clever? That's just... no. Lupe does texturize his lyrics with metaphors, but all that does is bring in more context to what he's saying. That's basically what a metaphor does; they add relatable context. And yet, you're claiming that this texturization actually adds no texture. That just means you're not putting together the pieces and seeing the whole picture. Pusha and Malice? Fuck outta here. Doom? Doom's flows have almost no purpose. He spits pure and aimless imagination, with no cohesion what so ever. The rest, well I understand why you bring them up. They're all just poetically straight-forward. Easy. No real depth, just legitimicy. Lupe is poetically abstract, drawing upon non-literal and visual plot elements to communicate literal and more emotional plot relevance. More depth; but because those non-literal elements help texturize the story in ways that straight-forwardness couldn't. That's another thing metaphors do, they help clarify and communicate. And just in case you're questioning my thinking :: I read and write poetry. Perform it too. People you'd say were dope say I'm dope. So... For you to see Lupe's references as shallow factualizes that you yourself are only taking his words at face value, and aren't really letting things come together. You're still stuck at the "How did he do that!?!" phase, instead of really taking notice of what he's doing. I didn't mean to come off as asinine, but I gottac all bull when I see it...
bigz2323's picture

ahha i love how nianja lays out these 5 factors in rap that u need like hes an expert, first u say kid cudi sucks, then u say lupe is maybe average, yeah a good beat and hook is nice but saying that thats more important then the lyrcis is fucking retarded and u should probably be on soulja boys website
Malik_3's picture

What the fuck does "lyrical" even mean? Stringing together metaphors and double entendres in a clever manner? That's an extremely dull and narrow minded way to look at and define any type of wordsmith. I don't think Lupe has much "lyrical competition" considering that not many rappers even care to lace their songs with metaphors on top of metaphors. But in a broader definition of "lyrical", Lupe isn't close to many peers, or past heroes. For example, while clever in what is written, majority of what is said is shallow and only at face value. Sure breaking down to finding the references is cute and all, but they are only there to be clever. That's it, the have no other function than that. It's a shame that's what Lupe has come to be defined as, because he has a plethora of songs that are far more interesting, even if they're less "lyrical". The Cool, Dedicated, Glory, Put You On Game, and Theme Music to a Drive-By come to mind most prominently. Unfortunately, majority of his acclaim comes from Failure and then every other lessar display of "lyricism" after that. As far as artists who are better lyrically than Lupe, I would go Ghostface, MF DOOM, Andre 3000, Raekwon, Cee-Lo, Blu, Mos Def, Pusha and Malice of Clipse, and Jean Grae. All of those listed, and few more that I won't get into for the sake of space, each have their own interesting individual lexicon that shines though in even some of their most mediocre of work. They are able to lift the words outside something as pedastrian as just making a reference to something the general audience doesn't know. Ghostface for example is probably one the greatest modern storytellers in all of music with his ability to effortlessly bring the audience into any tale via his stream of consciousness style. It also helps that he has his own ironic and delibrate sense of humor interjected into each song. I don't believe people putting Lupe on "greatest poet" statue often read that much poetry or with much variance.
nIANja909's picture

Delivery Personality Emotional Connect Hooks production All either lacking, and or could use improvement. and of course his biggest downfall as a rapper, the fact that, no matter how great you seem to think he is "lyrically" or "potentially", he's still only created a limited amount of "Great" music. Maybe because he is so busy being so Godly lyrically, he forgets to make sure the other pieces of the puzzle are up to/match that criterion. There is more to Rap then just "Lyricism". So even if you consider him, without a doubt the best in that aspect, that's still only a fish in the ocean. So I dunno why you're taking this so seriously.
jthompsh's picture

@NINJA bro quit acting like Lupe is "average and sub-par" compared to other people in catagories. the only thing youve brought up is the "emotion" he portrays. like your a dumbass if you think that. he kills any competition lyrically
bigz2323's picture

ok when u say cudi cant make good music thats just ur opinion, and yeah kanyes lyrics might be bad and so might jadakiss' but that does mean that rhymefests own shit isnt good
Ruffstylz's picture

Co-sign on what Tay said.
DigitalVoice's picture

Slaughterhouse
Gramitoz's picture

His production skills are not going unannounced, he became a rapper and multi-platinum selling artist because of the delivery. Kanye makes music everyone wants to listen
rezide's picture

I don't think one thing can make someone who they are, an artist is made up of more than just delivery. If we were to say that one thing made Kanye who he is, you would have to say production surely? And if people buy him, its because people want to hear him. - goes without saying.
Gramitoz's picture

lol Nas has had bad songs too. Look at some shit from The Lost Tapes or some Nastradamus. LOL Kanye's whole point is delivery. He doesn't have the depth nor the complexity. His DELIVERY is what made him who he is. And if people buy him, its because people want to hear him.
rezide's picture

more* sorry.
rezide's picture

Well i guess they aren't even Kanye's lyrics. Mort to the point i think his delivery is a little off point. When saying something is shit, it is always being held relative to something. N.Y. State of Ming lyrics > Barry Bonds lyrics?
nIANja909's picture

lol @ Kanye's lyrics being s***. Fail.
rezide's picture

he was kanye jadakiss and jays ghostwriter yeah, and how shit are their lyrics.
nIANja909's picture

I'll say one thing, Lupe can do more things, styles, themes etc then just about any other rapper I know. I just don't think he does many of them good. He is pretty much average - good at best in just about every category. Anything Lupe does, other rappers can do 10 times better. Except maybe obscure anime references and lame stuff like that =D
TAY's picture

There may be a couple of rappers that can do certain things "better" than Lupe. But I think it's safe to say that there is no rapper // poet to date that is as well-roundedly skilled as Lupe. No one has as vast a skill set, and the ability to perform those skills quite as nicely, as Lupe. Nobody.
nIANja909's picture

Aesop Rock loool. What a joke. And I'm glad you think Cudi's music has "meaning", to bad he can't apply it to create good music. S*****y music with "meaning" (still the dumbest excuse for a rappers terribleness) is still s*****y music.

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